He is a gun owner and avid reloader from Colorado. Im knocking quite a few off my backlist to be sure. and our The target to our right showed three A-zone hits and a stray shot in the D-zone, furthest from center. This removed any slack between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. MSRP: $700; palmettostatearmory.com, Good advice on the 300 blk pistols Anybody not owning a 300 blk should consider getting one Im 66 years young, big fan of 270,300 magnum but this 300 blk up to 150 yards is great . However, it does have certain things to recommend it over those others. While chambered in 5.56 NATO, the Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW has but a 5.5-inch barrel. In addition, the fit and finish of the operational parts, most important the consistency of the trigger, makes this carbine worth the extra money. The pistol is supplied with flip-up front and rear sights that sit relatively tall when folded and dont take up much rail space. While the plastic handguard and the buttstock showed a little bit of play, fit and function of the more important parts of the M400 Classic were exceptional. Higher-level shooters might prefer a hard break without overture, but its certainly not a distraction that will inhibit the experienced shooter. Two of the loads were subsonic; Sigs 220-grain OTMs clustered into 0.7 inches while Lehigh Defenses 194-grain Maximum Expansion (ME) rounds created a 1-inch group. Eric Poole and Tom Beckstrand test the Aimpoint Acro P-2 against one of red dot sights' biggest myths: distance. Built with a premium nickel boron coated trigger, forged carrier, enhanced Melonite coated carrier group and a pinned gas block, every rifle is built for ultimate reliability. However, moving to the Barnes, Hornady and Lehigh Defense rounds changed things. I had several concerns due to its comically short barrel, its accuracy, reliability and velocity. Subsonic ammunition, as its name suggests, pushes bullets below the speed of sound. SAINT VICTOR PIST 300BLK 30+1. SIG MCX Rattler SBR . The test shooter said he was on target inside the A-zone, but the trigger didnt respond. But thats not really new, either. Though, the pistol is a 1:8 twist rate affair. The new rifle is built on an aluminum billet chassis with carbon-fiber forend and cheek riser featuring V-block bedding. Some big news for trigger pullers recently from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. The barrel has a 1:8-inch twist and is Melonite coated. Sig isnt the most popular on the forum, but Ive never had an issue with my M400. However, on the PDW, the Reptilia grip and the provided 20-round magazines look perfect. HKs MP7 has never been available in any commercial form. Sounds like an excuse to get another can like a Dead Air Sandman-S. +1 this is what I ordered for my Rattler. A forum community dedicated to SIG Sauer Pistols and SIG Sauer Rifles owners and enthusiasts. And After shooting the CZ 75 Tatical sport orange I was in love . MSRP: $949; ruger.com. So, I spread the wealth equally. Fun as all get out to rattle off the range. Can the SIG MCX Rattler do it? Profits before the 2A. The ambidextrous controls worked quite well, and the safety lever on the off hand did not interfere with the shooter, be he right-handed or left-handed. The buttstock was adjustable for length by compressing the lower panel running in line with the buffer tube. But there is hope for me after seeing the new SnakeBite Tread 5.56 . I would use the 110-grain Barnes TAC-TX load and never feel undergunned. In use, it seemed to all but disappear. Now with the updated SAINT Edge PDW goes further, by going smaller. I own the Springfield Saint Victor. Given the test barrel used to produce this data was likely 20 inches or more in length, we think this was still somewhat out of spec. Keep Reading. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Springfield Armory of Illinois has been producing its own versions of the iconic M1A rifle for many years, but Springfield, like several other manufacturers, is known primarily as makers of handguns, or for that matter bolt-action rifles. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Barrel is Chromemoly Vanadium, Melonite coated inside and out, 1:8 twist and a NATO chamber. Brand: Springfield. The new big bore pistols feature industry-first capacity, with a standard 15-round capacity and 22+1 rounds of 10mm or 18+1 rounds of .45 ACP from the extended magazines. I got my hands on the SBR variant, which features a skeletonized stock that folds flat against the left side of the receiver without obstructing the controls. And when the special operations community began searching for a new 300 Blackout PDW, Sig Sauer provided a solution with the SIG MCX Rattler. The issue is, get it wrong, send a bullet yawling at the muzzle and youre contending with endcap and baffle strikes in your suppressor. That said, most of the 6.75" barrels shoot supers unsuppressed just fine. Sig Sauer may have the answer in the MCX Rattler PCB! I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . I put a ton of ammunition through this rifle, and everything workedtypical of the MCX series. Jacketed bullets can fragment at higher velocities due to high twist rates. Do Pistols Benefit From Popular Aftermarket Modifications? I got it for around 900 dollars a little over a year ago. But if you want range, get a longer-barreled rifle with a slower twist rate to optimize 125-grain loads. One by-product of this arrangement was an extension of the lower portion of the bolt lock/release lever. I recently got the Tread 716i 308, MCX Rattler in 300 BLK and MPX K (completes my collection as I also have the MPX Copperhead and PCC). Caliber: 300 AAC Blackout-MSRP: 1015. Use of our website(s) implies understanding of our content disclaimer and privacy policy. I found myself hooking my index finger around the front of it while shooting as opposed to actually using it as a hand stop. models. The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. A Magpul dual split aperture flip-up rear sight was attached to the top rail that ran the length of the receiver. Springfield Armory SAINT 5.56 NATO [MSRP $919] Sig Sauer M400 Tread 5.56 NATO [MSRP $949] - 16 Stainless Steel Barrel, Free-Floating M-LOK Handguard, . I just wish the right-side lever was shorter so it wouldnt bump my trigger finger when flipping it off. Also visible with the top end hinged away was the Accu-Tite tension system consisting of a synthetic non-marring screw that mated flush beneath the bottom of the connecting lug. Rattler was built to be fired primarily unsuppressed, with the ability to be suppressed, if needed. Units specializing in covert, ship-borne or hostage-rescue operations still wanted PDWs with more powerrifle-caliber power to be exact. The Saint is one of the most user-friendly versions of this user-friendly platform. You got the CZ shadow 2 orange is it 9mm or 40 cal. Taurus Marketing Manager Caleb Giddings highlights the features of the new Taurus Raging Hunter 460 Magnum, a purpose-built revolver with a 10.5-inch barrel and an effective recoil-taming brake, with Guns & Ammo Executive Editor Joe Kurtenbach. The detent spring was quite heavy and the grip necessary to compress it proved awkward. We think mounting accessories in the arc between the top rail and the sides shows a lot of promise for easy control. Short and sweet, the 5.5-inch barreled MCX Rattler is as compact as 300 Blackout pistols come. Will it perform at greater distances? Dont be fooled, a 16-inch carbine in Blackout will outperform a 9-inch Blackout pistol. Matte Black. Springfield has made some shitty moves in the past but they make an amazing AR. Looking past the outdated grip and buttstock, this is a very good rifle that deserved a much better trigger. I bought a Tread on a whim. That's a $1000 dollar rifle and a good deal at that but you're getting gouged pretty bad at 1400. Colt Model 1861 Special Musket: What's Its Value? The upper, including the mix of Picatinnny and Keymod rail, was more modern than the lower, which offered more traditional components, such as the plastic grip with single finger groove and the buttstock that was sans any padding. I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. Is the Rattler a precision instrument? The companys thinking must be a suppressor is going on there anyway, so cut costs with the standard muzzle device. I'm having a hard time deciding on which one of these to purchase. Im looking eventually for a Tread 400 (maybe this one?). Springfield incorporates some nice accessories from Reptilia Corp. like the CQG pistol grip, which has a more vertical angle than the standard AR grip. SIG Sauer Introduces the New SIG Tread Snakebite SE. The only difference are the built in QD mounts to any other lower. 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These two hunting loads made perfect little holes and passed through their blocks without expanding. I usually have to take break between mags. I would really like to hear from you guys who have had access and range time with these MSR's. Barrels with twist rates of 1:8 inches and even 1:7 inches have replaced the original-issue lands and grooves that spun the bullets at a rate of 1:9. We also tested with 77-grain OTM 223 Remington rounds manufactured by SIG Sauer. In addition to all that, for the features you get on this pistol, it is priced very reasonably. The other rifles did not suffer this complaint. In these times, what you want and what is available are two very different things. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The barrel is 16 inches and features a 1:8 twist. For example, Ive seen U.S. Department of State Diplomatic Security Service special agents wielding them in the field when guarding high-value targets. "If I'd known I'd live this long I'd have taken better care of myself.". The Sig Rattler would fit the description of what your looking for perfectly with a 5.5 in .300blk barrel and no buffer tube. To install (or remove for cleaning), you have to pop out both pins on the lower receiver and then slide the upper receiver back and forth. As a result, the American Tactical recently announced the company will offer two new bolt-action rifle systems from Black Creek Labs. 4. As long as you are not expecting rifle-length performance out of a barrel this short, you wont be disappointed. With the Saint Edge series of ARs, you get nicely sculpted lower receivers machined from billet aluminum. Of course, given the Rattlers short barrel, some gel testing was in order. Probably 2k rounds through it and has always gone bang. S pringfield Armory rocked the firearms community with the introduction of the SAINT rifle in 2016. This gun has a picatinny rail system for accessories, a six-position collapsible stock, a flash suppressor and a single-stage trigger. Furthermore, Sig has a much higher percentage of parts and weapons produced in house, which allows them to control quality much more closely, where as Springfield assembles and builds only a fraction of their product line, AFAIK. As a result of this solicitation, SIG Sauer designed the MCX Rattler, and Maxim Defense came out with the PDX. A few times the bolt wouldnt lock back after firing the last round with the SilencerCo Omega 9K in place. This rifle also features a free float M-LOK handguard, ambidextrous controls and a rotating bolt system. You have entered an incorrect email address! One thing I would like to point out that seemingly even many owners of the Maxim Defense SCW and larger CQB braces and stocks dont seem to know is that you only have to use the button to collapse it. Whereas the SIG Sauer presented direct pressure against a solid object, the Saints trigger offered a subtle compression before reaching its breaking point. But you may have noticed complete uppers selling for as little as $400 during the last rounds of holiday sales and complete carbines selling for less than $700. Now weve got Springfields PDW in a similarly sized envelope, namely albeit chambered in 5.56 NATO. There was another location for a QD sling from either side at the rear of the receiver just below where the buffer tube was attached. From the 100-yard line, the Saint delivered 1.0-inch five-shot groups with the Black Hills 60-grain V-Max, 69-grain OTM rounds, and the 77-grain TMK ammunition. Can't wait to find the price on this and see one in person . This five-position brace was specifically designed for PDW-sized guns and only hangs 4 inches off the back of the receiver when fully collapsed. As far as apples to apples, do your research and see for yourself that you will get slightly better product with a Springfield compared to a sig, better coatings on barrel, BCG (both melonite) and a Nickel boron coated trigger. 300 AAC Blackout. I'm selling my XD and definitely going with the MCX. Thank you for that information, I really needed to know that. That saint victor is 400 above msrp though. Like the MPX, the MCX uses a short-stroke gas piston system, which does away with the need for a buffer system, and the weapon can use a folding stock or no stock at all. The buttplate had a thin rubber pad smoothly integrated; it was more friendly to clothing or bare skin for that matter. But After getting hooked on the Springfield Saint line I lost interest in the Sig , I feel bad. The buttstock was properly applied and showed only the slightest wiggle. A PDW is not a rifle. check out the. Boasting nice crisp break, the trigger also has a short reset allowing the gun to run fast. I am reminded that short barrels are inherently more accurate as there is less flexing during the recoil cycle. The Judge has been promoted! Caliber + 300 BLK; 5.56 NATO; 7.62x39 . The BCM Gunfighter buttstock offered sleek lines with no protruding levers that might catch on gear, such as the straps of a chest rig. So, as you can see, this is the ultimate platform for a protective detail, SWAT operations where concealability is paramount, or vehicle or home defense with responsible citizens. It started expanding at about 6 inches and fragmented at 15, leaving just the lead core and base at 26 inches. I got the email also Bio. Camp Guns: Sometimes Perfect, Other Times Not But Often Essential! One last more subtle upgrade was the trigger guard from Bravo Company that left more room for a gloved finger without necessarily having to unlatch the bottom panel. They are more compact and lighter than ever, Making it the ideal weapon for Rapid deployment and close quarter work. | I would go with the sig. And in the end after a couple of weeks go by she said to my are you happy with your choice I said of course , why I said . Hence there are solid copper bullets for high speed applications in 16 inch carbines (1/6 rate or greater) that shoot 300 BLK, but the ammo is expensive. Anybody who has experience with these I would appreciate your opinions. The bottom line? The Rattler runs a very dependable gas-piston system, which eliminates all the fouling typical in these short-barreled configurations. I installed it on an AR carbine but ended up taking it off, because while it felt good in my hand, it just didnt look right to my eye. All Rights Reserved. Given the paperwork and money you spent on the can, is it worth testing twist-rates theories yourself? Thats pretty much what youd expect from a V-MAX. To test this, I fed the PDW Black Hills 77-grain TMK load in addition to more traditional offerings. PDWs in the modern era see most use with government security details where large rifles are not needed. The only upgrade we spied was a relief in the takedown pin that helps keep the punch, or bullet tip, from sliding off under pressure. MCX-SPEAR . Type: Semi-Auto Pistol. I said you really loved shooting the orange . If you havent heard yet, be advised that millions of gun owners may soon be classified as felons if a new Bureau of Alcohol, AR-15 Carbines for Less Than $1300: The Winner is a Saint, SIG Sauer P365XL Spectre P365V001 9mm Luger, Springfield Armory Hellcat Pro HCP9379BOSP 9mm Luger, SHOT 2023: Savage Arms Introduces 1911 Government Model Pistols, 5 Best 9mm Pistols for Concealed Carry in 2023, New Shooters Guide: The Best Gun For Home Defense Isnt a. We set up a three-target array with just 10 feet between each target. What is it? Purely on the rifle's features / traits wise, Update: im being told that both rifles are available for ~$1000 should I wait; i guess the extra $$$ is demand / price gouging for the saint. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Logical on the surface, given faster twist rates are generally required for heavier bullets, but there is debate on the matter. They are going to err on the side of caution by telling you they are incompatible but in this situation they are right. All remaining rounds produced 1-inch groups. As to the brace, its a Tailhook Mod 2, an adjustable model that does an excellent job of settling in the gun. I've shot the Saint a few times and my local lgs and I like the trigger, feel and ergonomics. The rear-sight assembly (sometimes referred to as BUIS or backup iron sight) was a flip-up design. Choice of ammunition for AR-15s used to be limited by the 1:9-inch-twist barrel. The free-floated handguard offered Keymod machining on three sides, and the Picatinny top rail extended 11 inches from the receiver. No, but it was never designed to be. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201for-carve-out/, http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685, https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017cal-gun-dealer, http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/5406606027600/, St. Gabriel Possenti Patron Saint of Handgunners, If this is your first visit, be sure to The first was the SilencerCo Omega 9K, which is only 4.7 inches long and weighs 7.2 ounces. Essentially, this makes the suppressors job easier, since it has less expanding gas to dissipate. Probably, but not at 900 fps. Honey badger .300bo 5. If I did buy another SIG rifle it would be the 716 to replace my Victor .308 (most know my issues with this gun). There is longer rifling in the barrel of the handgun currently on my hip than there is in this PDW. Essentially it boils down to performance and suppressibility. It's The only Sig I have left I won't give up because I like it that much . The grip was certainly not traditional, offering a very friendly profile, including a pinkie ledge, at the bottom and an extended backstrap up over the web of the hand. But there are a few key reasons why the .30-caliber is better suited for compact ARs. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. The SIG MCX Rattler is an incredibly handy rifle thats easy to conceal. they bring all the guns and you buy the ammo and have a blast . The MCX can be switched from 5.56mm NATO to 300 Blackout and back again, and users can easily install new barrels, handguards and stocks as needed. The two most well-known modern PDWs are the FN P90 and the HK MP7. (Tie) B&T .45 2. Wilson Combat SFX9 5-Inch Solid Frame 9mm Pistol: First Look. But Wilsons Q-Comp flash hider/muzzle brake also does its part in keeping the gun manageable. Most familiar with ARs know you dont have to go out and buy one specially chambered for the want-to-be 7.6239mm clone. As to suppressibility, few centerfire rifle cartridges do it better. Definitely looking at the Sig, but having a hard time forking over that much money. Twist rate on bullets is a debatemine is 1:7 on 9 barrel. When you authored this on 24 March 2020, SIG announced the 716I Tread for civilian sale which is the same rifle minus select fire, 1913 rails on the handguards 6', and an M-Lok Bayonet lug. Now we've got Springfield's PDW in a similarly sized envelope, namely albeit chambered in 5.56 NATO. I was really happy . I wrote SilencerCo to ask about the Hybrid compatibility. I think I've driven myself mad with comparing the pros and cons. Not as expensive as their Carbon Fiber wrapped Barrel model, but probably my most costly AR15 to date. When not at his press or the range he can be found chasing mule deer around the Rocky Mountains. The trigger presented a crisp break at about 7.6 pounds of resistance with barely an ounce or two in variation from shot to shot. Want to optimize the hush on a 300 Blackout pistolor carbineits a subsonic ammunition affair. I used two suppressors with the Rattler. The 300 Blackout pistol model is no different, but few shooters miss the bells and whistles with a gun that goes bang with every trigger pull and hits the mark. The CMMG Mk4T was the tale of two rifles. It's a little longer but CZ Bren 2 MS pistol can be had in 5.56 or 7.62x39 with a couple added inches of barrel than the Sig Rattler. Top 300 Blackout Pistol Options For Every Budget, 5 Best AR-10 Options You Can Actually Afford (2023), Best .380 Pistol Options For Deep Carry (2023), 8 On-Target Concealed Carry Insurance Options (2022), 10 Affordable Double-Barrel Shotgun Options (2022), Best AR-15 Options For Any Budget And Buyers Guide (2022), Best Concealed Carry Handguns For Women (2022). The SIG MCX in a discrete platform featuring a thin, durable folding stock and a 5.5" barrel with PDW upper. With the provided 20-round Magpul PMAG in place, the PDW weighs 5 pounds, 10 ounces. All in, our CMMG rifle displayed 1-MOA accuracy on average for all shots fired, despite our difficulties with the trigger. Now I have Seven Springfield guns with Five Saint Victors . Rather, the AR-15 is an ideal defensive weapon necessary for the legally armed defense-conscious American. I would deploy this as a dedicated entry rifle in a heartbeat. This test was performed cold, one and done with no makeups. The trigger is Springfields flat trigger, first introduced on the Saint Victor line. One new winner* is announced every week! So goes the AR-556 line of ARs. Compare. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . Springfield Armory Saint vs Sig Sauer M400 Tread . If the general shape of Springfields PDW looks a little familiar to you, theres a reason for that. As for Springfields PDW, it is an AR, so it has familiar controls. Eventually, ammo manufacturers answered the call, and now dozens offer 300 Blackout loads for a variety of uses. Over ten trigger pulls we never got the same reading twice. Don't wrestle with pigs, don't argue with idiots. Ready to go where-ever it's needed, the MCX Rattler has a thin, foldable stock for easy concealment and stowage. FN sells a 16-inch-barreled carbine version of the P90, the PS90, but it looks ugly and awkward and is far from compact. To extend it, just give the brace a vigorous yank. At first glance, I thought the PDW was ridiculous in both appearance and performance. The Tread was $799.00 and the Saint was $849.00. SIG Sauer MCX-SPEAR: Civilian Version of XM7 Rifle Arrives! Looks pretty sweet . We think this made the trigger a little more user friendly in that there seemed to be more time for the shooter to completely refine a shot. The Sig Enhanced is heavy and not as responsive as youd expect in a gun of this class, somewhat akin to a mil-spec job. Though its important to enter this aspect of the cartridge with eyes wide open. Sig 716i or Springfield Victor Saint .308, https://www.surplusammo.com/categori-308-mags.html, MISC Training Course Announcements & AAR's, Former Vickers Shooting Method Regional Instructors, Pacific Northwest Training and Networking, All Other Longgun Parts, Accessories, & Magazines (EE), Handgun Parts, Accessories & Magazines (EE), If this is your first visit, be sure to (Most folks will never see such high velocities out of the 5.5 inch barrel.) Anything beyond 100 yards and that starts to fade. Outdoors, only the Winchester FMJ produced enough flash to be visible to me when shooting. Soldiers and law enforcement who wear plates or body armor might not complain about the bare-plastic buttplate, but most shooters will want something more friendly. It uses a specialized upper receiver that is designed to be as compact as possible. I plan on using it primarily for hunting and some plinking. Hay Talyn, The 1st pic is of the new Switchblade 5.56 Pistol , Which is a real pic from the LGS. Indoors, every load produced visible flash, but premium ammo gave me a small, manageable flash. Now more are jumping into the AR-15 market. Taking into account the creep in the CMMG trigger, we patiently worked our way to the break. Honestly, theres not a ton to ballyhoo on the pistol other than it runs, dependably so. This is the MCX Rattler. Here are my personal Pros & Cons of the Saint Victor (FEATURELESS, CA Compliant version) Pros: - Comes with basic flip-up sights ready to go out of box - Full length M-Lok rail slots (TREAD seems to stop 8/10 of the way from the front) - Lighter Cons: - $1400+tax - 2 port MB rather than M400's 3 port (any difference in felt recoil?) However, the range in resistance spanned from about 6.75 pounds to almost 8.0 pounds. June 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM #2. . Whereas there is nothing special about the front sight, buttstock, or handguard, upgrades to the magazine release, safety levers, and the bolt catch are more expensive to manufacture or supply than a fancy handguard or buttstock. I just started a new thread under Sig Rifles to cover Vrtus Patrol. It also directs sound and blast forward, away from the shooter and provides some flash reduction. Sig MCX rattler 5.5" 300bo 2. I have builds from BCM, Springfield, Noveske and PSA. It will likely go through a threat up close (given no contact with bone), but most of its work is done before exiting. I dont own any Springfield armory but it seems they do one dumbass thing on every gun they build, but different every time. I will not consider another firearm from the Saint line ever again. Building on the popularity of the company's Rattler in 300 BLK, SIG Sauer introduced a new model chambered in 5.56 NATO for 2019. . Suppressed, the Rattler ran everything on the supersonic setting (less gas). Barrel-twist rate was 1:8. Your welcome BET7, I've looked at the Christensen Arms and pretty sweet , Also was dead set on getting a Danial defense DD4 after shooting it at the expo , but didn't .
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